Activities for kinta

@pcambra Whelp, I guess I know one thing I'll be doing this weekend - that issue is currently blocked by an update to its issue summary. I'm taking that on.

@ultimike there are ancient comments there, I think I linked from the 74 or so where there's the most recent conversation, but agreed, thought this was already covered but seems it isn't, wondering if some custom scaffold would be a valid workaround? https://www.drupal.org/docs/develop/using-composer/using-drupals-composer-scaffold#s-examples

@pcambra Appreciate the link to that issue - it explains a lot (even if I only read the issue description and a few of the (checks notes) 138 comments.

Seems like something like this being in core is long-overdue (IMHO).

@pcambra when I first saw the announcement I thought it was good that you couldn't simply pay the higher fees to get on the first page, but I don't see why they had to make it so much cheaper per head for larger companies or paying for listing at all. I guess orgs that don't pay would still have a d.o page just not on the listing though?

@ultimike this issue might help https://www.drupal.org/project/drupal/issues/3082958#comment-13442095

@pcambra There's not much there for folks who are setting up their first .gitignore file...

@ultimike check drupal-scaffold https://www.drupal.org/docs/develop/using-composer/using-drupals-composer-scaffold

@pcambra It also continues to put Drupal agencies, who have a $ incentive to advertise their services, over companies and institutions who pay developers to contribute to Drupal because they USE Drupal themselves for their operations. Those developers' contributions continue to be downplayed.

The bias has been baked into the contribution metric system from the start, and now you also have to pay just to be recognized?

@pcambra @dreamleaf it used to be that the page was sorted first by tier, then by commit credits, this removes that but then undermines it again by making the per-head cost cheaper for bigger companies.

@pcambra @drupalassoc I... don't even know what to say. Clearly my company won't pay that much, especially considering we only have a small part of the company involved in Drupal. I always considered myself a "Maker" for Drupal, but apparently not.

@pcambra we really need a beer at some point…

@pcambra @drupalassoc
I said this again and again when I was there.
Actually removing entries that don’t contribute with cash is a new move, though. And one I simply cannot support.

@jpoesen 100% agreed

@pcambra @drupalassoc I can't get beyond the fact that the post used images of text in tables with no ALT text making it impossible for anyone depending on a screen reader to participate in this conversation.

I'll hold off on making a judgment about the changes until I know more about..

> The Supporting Partner program will be re-oriented to recognize those companies who are not in the business of selling Drupal services, but want to contribute to the project and the community.

@pcambra I have no beef with you. We're on the same side. I just have less of a problem with the amounts themselves than with the whole pay-for-play direction. And we agree on that too.

@jpoesen If it was a donation, let's talk donations, but the DA is offering visibility in return and they're literally saying that if you don't pay the fee, you're no longer considered a maker, no matter how much you countribute.

@jpoesen
what point? because it is not "the cost of one day of one person", at all. If you talk in terms of purely revenue, it is significantly more than one day's work, say you work with a 25% margin, that's almost 1 week of 1 developer, not one day.

Anyway, addressing the "it's not worth it", this expense of being a supporting partner comes from the marketing budget and in the bottom of that table... there's simply no marketing budget for small companies.

@pcambra @drupalassoc Sure, my math is back of the napkin using a big blackboard marker accurate, but the point remains.

@jpoesen @drupalassoc

Say you have a loss of revenue of 400 per that day, the employee is costing the company a good % of that, you need to add that up as well :)

@jpoesen @drupalassoc One contributes because one wants. For a company it is radically different.

Why is it more expensive for employee for smaller organizations to support the DA?

It's not 100% about cost, it's about transparency and damaging the ecosystem.

Anyway your maths are a bit flawed btw, you need to add up what the employee costs, and that is not the model of most agencies (charging per day vs charging per project).

@pcambra @drupalassoc
I don't really get the "it's not worth it" remark.

One support financially because one wants to, not because one get anything specific in return. IMHO.

Also: 5K/year is 400/month, roughly the average day rate of an EU Drupal developer.

So: as a company setting aside the revenue of 1 single of your dev's revenue for 1 day of work / month would finance the 5K tier.

@catch56 just edited to make it more clear 🙇‍♂️

@pcambra @drupalassoc

Actually, I like that proposal from the DA. Apart from many other very important topics, it makes it clear that providing the infrastructure and increasing the marketing effort by 10x, requires money.

And the amounts are not too bad. We're talking roundabout 1$ per day per person. Is that really an issue? If so, that entity is then not a business that potential clients are looking for on a marketplace.

@pcambra @drupalassoc As a one person business, who contributes to Drupal in my own time, why in the world would I want to pay $1,500 for this? It certainly has no basis in quality of work, I've taken over projects from agencies producing shocking stuff that I'm sure could afford their tier to be a "maker"

@pcambra oh missed the + I see.

@pcambra

Drupal: We value your contributions

Company: Thank you

Drupal: So because you contribute so much and devote paid dev hours you can now pay us lots of money to advertise you

Company: Hang on, you just said you value us and now you will only recognise that if we give you $$$

Drupal: It's not like that. It is because we value you that we are giving you the opportunity to give back

Company: Err, so how about if we stop contributing and also not paying

Drupal: BRB

@pcambra
I'm strongly reminded of this page and text @ https://www.drupal.org/association/open-web-manifesto

@dreamleaf it does feel like this move could potentially damage small business, because a 500+ company pays 5x more than a 11 people company but their budgets are not 5x, I wish.

@catch56 Indeed but contractors are counted so we'd fall in the next tier

@pcambra not to nitpick because it sounds like still a 3x increase but wouldn't you be in 4-10 ($3k) with 10 people?

@pcambra
It's been proven time and again that any "trusted partners" value is best determined by contribution rather than financial contribution. The moment that a user realises it's literally a purchased recognition, it loses ALL value.

While I'm incredibly grateful to those kick ass companies that have made Drupal what it is today, their gain is working the big money contracts.

Cont...

@pcambra Then we can rebrand the concept also: from "makers" to "payers"

Also this is wrong at so many levels:

"The Drupal Marketplace on Drupal.org will be reserved solely for Makers, known as Drupal Certified Partners. The Marketplace will be branded as the global list of “Makers” and recommended by the Drupal Association and will only list Drupal Certified Partners in active status."

So if you don't pay a fee to the DA but you have projects maintained, core commits, organise events, mentor, you're suddenly not a maker?

I think this will hurt contributions outside the US where the financial culture is completely different and the market values work in other ways.

The new @drupalassoc certified partners is just delusional, and incredibly US centered, so now if you don't pay a fee you're not listed in the #Drupal marketplace no matter how much you contribute?

In our case (10 people agency), a $5000 fee is just not worth it, we were happily paying the community supporter tier but we won't do a 5x increase, it's just not reasonable for our budget.

https://www.drupal.org/association/blog/turning-takers-into-makers-the-enhanced-drupal-certified-partner-program

No rest in #Drupal, Drupal 11 will be released this year /via @gaborhojtsy https://www.hojtsy.hu/blog/2024-feb-12/onwards-drupal-11-ways-get-involved